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Sunday, November 27, 2011

When to Invest

I think my comment was something like “the time to buy is when both the weekly and daily stochastics are oversold (20%)". That was kind of a glib comment, and Mannwich correctly questioned me on it. In fact, we can show that that’s the time to invest, and to refine the time we can use regression analysis (or SMA evaluation) to get a more exact entry point. So here’s the analysis I promised. First, the weekly SPY chart for the time period I wish to explore: April 2008-present. On it you can see the times we hit oversold.: June 2008, Dec 2008, March 2009, May 2010, June 2011, Aug. 2011, and Oct 2011. All the charts below are courtesy of TDAmeritrade StrategyDesk.



As you can see, there are only a few times where the SPY weekly hits the 20% (or oversold) point, and crosses over in the upward direction (I’m writing this from the long viewpoint because everybody hates people who short). (And I’m tired of being hated.) We’ll take a look at these.

The first one hits in June, 2008. Here’s the weekly section of the above chart for this time frame:



At the June point, the price has not gone above the 12-period SMA (blue line). Price starts to break the SMA in Dec/E but returns and doesn’t break the SMA trend line until March, 2009 (it hasn’t broken it’s down channel until that point) so the beginning of the trend reversal happens in March, 2009. Here is the daily chart for that timeframe:



You can see that during the Dec/E, we haven’t returned to oversold. So we have to wait until the daily returns to oversold before entry. The stochastics return to oversold around Jan 14, and break the SMA around Jan 28th, so that’s our entry point. However 2 days later, we have to exit because we’ve broken below the SMA, and it’s turned flat, then negative slope. We don’t get a turn-up of the SMA until March 10. That’s when I would enter again. Notice we get a pullback on the 19th, but because we didn’t drop below the 20% point on the Stochastics, I’d add at those points because of the W formations with the right side higher. See this chart for my exit point:



Your risk appetite should tell you when to exit, but I’d start taking money off the table preparing to exit when the SMA starts turning south, on May 20th. However when we break back above the SMA, I’d add again, looking at those W’s. I wouldn’t exit until June 12 or so, when we get a significant drop below the SMA, and wait for the next setup.


The next time we revisit the 20% point on the weekly is around May, 2010. We don’t start leaving that until July 2010. Here’s the weekly chart for that timeframe:




You can see we cross the SMA around the beginning of July/mid, 2010. But at that point, the SMA is not positive. So any investment entry consideration at that point should be carefully done. Here’s the daily chart:




You can see that we’re not at the oversold point at the beginning of August, so I would have to wait for the daily to return to oversold. This happens around Aug 15, and starts breaking the daily SMA around Sept. 1, 2010. That would mark my entry point. At that point, the weekly stochastics are still on the rise.


The next time we hit the 20% point on the weekly is (arguably) June 2011. Here’s the weekly chart:



We don’t break out over the SMA until October, 2011. Here’s the daily chart:




As you can see around Oct 7 the stochs are on their way up, and we break out over the SMA, so that’s our entry point. I won’t tell you how to manage your risk, but we cross back round Nov 16, so that was my exit point.

This concludes my approach for buying when both the weekly and daily S&P hit oversold. I hope this answers Mannwich’s question adequately.

Remember, I’m not so much a risk taker. I remember my losses vividly. Some people buy as the market goes down. Not me. I am a trend-follower. The last thing I’d like to mention is that you can invert the above analysis if you wish to short.

88 comments:

  1. Rock that is some very good stuff and definetly worth re-reading (Which I will do)

    Thanks for sharing your insight

    Mutt

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  2. Ft.com

    "Italian bond yields hit 8%".

    "Black Friday retail sales hit record".

    Bloomberg is saying $52.4 billion.

    U.S. consumer is back!

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  3. IMF reading mega loan of up to $800B to Italy -via Trader Mark -fundmymutualfund.com. Bloomberg also has this story.

    So the U.S. bailing out Italy!

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  4. So Rock, you'll miss Sing. in winters as we Indians do India. Summer not so much.

    ICan

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  5. @ICan:

    Actually, my only regret, and the thing I really miss, is my inability to get to India for a visit. I eversomuch wanted to take the Palace on Wheels. But hopefully they'll let me retire soon and I can schedule a trip then.

    In winter. :-)>

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  6. @ICan: your 7:40

    I helped! I went to Harbor Freight and bought 120.00 worth of tools, all on 50% off price, plus I had an additional 20% off one item coupon.

    I was gonna buy extension cords, but *wow* did they go up in price!!! I thought copper came back down! Maybe China is trying to unload all that expensive copper by selling extension cords to the US.......

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  7. @Rock(8:00)

    Cdns helped too. I can't remember the figure, but there were some estimates I saw maybe xbillions!

    I have a nephew attending a U.S. college. So my family is doing our share.

    Canadians love shopping in the U.S. especially when the dollar is above par. Saves some taxes - 15% fed and prov. But even without taxes, some similar products are more expensive here. I don't get it! May retailers think Cdns are used to paying more. Suckers. People complain and nothing comes out it. Target is coming.

    There is big fuss about Wallmart going to India.

    ICan

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  8. @Rock,

    People used to love(and still look for) western made labels in India. It was a status symbol as are German cars.

    Alas!

    ICan

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  9. WTF headline from ZH.

    "Former IMF employee and Greek statistics head faces life in prison if found guilty of making Greece look uglier".

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  10. Clarification on my 8:10, Wallmart going to India:

    Local small retailers don't want to see them and the major oppositionn party is doing all it can to stop them.

    Free trade only when it benefits them.

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  11. Volume has been way down. Last week we sold off every day, so this is a short-covering pop by just a few people in the overnight.

    I'm selling short right now, looking for a plunge down from this pop. Why? take a look at the post a couple weeks ago with the VXX and the blue support line. We didn't break, or even come close to, that support.

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  12. And there's no European news, just more promises to agree. Bloomberg says the probablility of the breakup of the Euro is getting higher.

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  13. Sure is a trader's market now, although this little bounce not too surprising (not sure it has legs though). Which means I'm not doing much, since I'm not a skilled trader.

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  14. Reading your link now, emmy. Interesting.

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  15. But I think Rock is right. Smells like a short squeeze, for the most part. With mo-mo's jumping into the action.

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  16. IMF/Italy was just a rumor.

    Even that Black Friday sales number is dissed! Trd Mark.

    Cobra was right. Oversold/shorts covering first, then plunge.

    ICan

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  17. TRIN's holding at .06, extremely bullish. However, the VXX is rising. This is called a "divergence". We're seeing bad news again from Europe: "BOE weale sees strong case for further asset purchases" "BOE Fisher says consumer spending, investment to be hit by weak confidence" and "BOE Fisher: Bank Deleveraging Likely To Be Hard To Reverse"

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  18. The great news is that Barney Frank won't seek re-election! If that doesn't move the market 500 points up, I don't know what would!

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  19. See
    http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/politics/barney-frank-not-running-for-re-election-20111128

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  20. @Rock: Barney probably saw how much old Newt made during his time away from Congress and figured he wanted in on that action too before the well goes dry.

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  21. Rock,

    See NBG! Wow!

    ICan

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  22. Mannwich - You just may be correct about your assesment of why Barney isn't running, but have you concidered the possiblilty he is not running because Newt is going to pick him as a running mate.

    I mean that is if Sarah Palin doesn't except his invite first.

    Mangy Mutt

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  23. Ican - WOW a 465% increase, I am so buying some,

    Mutt

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  24. @Mutt(10:30)

    Now I can dump mine!

    Maybe for some profit. I had made some money on Citi and thought I could make some on NBG.

    ICan

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  25. ICan - Good call on that one, way to go.

    Mutt

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  26. This BBC Steve Keen video is REALLY good:

    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/11/steve-keen-on-bbc-on-how-to-get-out-of-our-current-depression.html

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  27. I tried to short NBG but TDA told me "no shares available to short sell".

    I coulda made a lotta money....

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  28. New Hampshire's biggest newspapaer the "Onion Eater"(yeah, I know, how can any newspaper in New Hampshire be big) has announced support for Newt.

    The Onion Eater will try to eat any other front-runner alive with lies, innuendo, twisted reporting, and facts. Yes, they use facts to their advantage.

    Newt may be our candidate.

    Sigh.

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  29. TLT down just slightly on big up day in equities. Hhhhhhmmmmm......

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  30. @Mannwich:

    So you think we might see a TurnAround Tuesday?

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  31. @Rock: That's what I'm thinking but who knows? TLT had sold off a bit earlier, but bounced again and is barely down. Something isn't squaring today. In the very least, I think this bounce doesn't last very long before we resume our move downward.

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  32. Well, we're about to give this rally back. Rock's even from last Friday, where I kept one short position over the weekend.

    I went short with 1/2 a position this morning (when I commented), and now I'm even.

    I think Mannwich is right. This bounce doesn't last, and we continue our move downward.

    So here's why the Grease haircut will be accepted: 50% of Grease's payment goes back to the ECB and banks. So there's just a circle going on.

    The banks and Grease debt holders think lending and huge repayment will go on, until grease changes spending habits (could take years) so even with their "haricuts" they will end up very profitable.

    Where did the money come from to begin with? Not sure. Maybe the ECB is in fact printing.

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  33. Rock,

    After Turkey day, Black Friday. Monday market.

    Endorphins.

    Peterlbrandt.com

    "Happy Thanksgiving: the Dow could be going to 4000".

    ICan

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  34. @ICan: I got it.

    I got stopped out, and barely had enough time to get back in my short position. Man, that was some action at the end of the day? See what you can do if you have light volume?

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  35. I've been sitting here thinking the dollar will get stronger because the euro will continue to get weaker, due to the debt crisis and contagion.

    I could be wrong.

    "WASHINGTON (AFP)--President Barack Obama said the U.S. stood ready to help Europe solve its fiscal problems on Monday, following a summit with European Union leaders dominated by the euro-zone crisis. "The United States stands ready to do our part to help them resolve this issue," Obama said after hosting EU representatives at the White House."

    Here, my friends, is QE3, and is a home run for the Bernank. Here's the scenario:

    We print $$. That dilutes the $$ and makes it weaker. The market goes up. We exchange these $$ with Euros, or Eurobonds, and keep the bonds. The euro is strengthened, and the market goes up.

    The market goes up much faster at the double-depreciation of the dollar.

    QE3 without announcing QE3.

    Genius at work. I'll bet it was Bernank's idea and he asked Obama to offer it to the Euroguys.

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  36. @Rock(4:30)

    That would be genius if you get paid 3-4% interst, while your cost of printing is almost zero.

    Your Fed is in competition with savers around the world.

    ICan

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  37. @ICan:

    Of course we'll get at least 3%. I mean, Italy's bonds are selling at 7% now, aren't they? And destined to go nowhere but up?

    What a deal.

    The thing I can't get to yet is how the elite in this country are going to benefit from this, unless it's the market moves up.

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  38. Rock(5:00)

    Ask any German why they opposed to bailing out the PIIGS!

    They still remember Weimer republic and reunification of Germany recently. I know of a couple from Germany. They just HATE the idea, but you know those exports have to go somewhere, savers be damned!

    We'll see who wins. Public or business.

    ICan

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  39. @ICan:

    I watched "The Corporation" over the weekend. Recommended by Mannwich, I think.

    I vote for the Corporation to win. They take no prisoners. Really.

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  40. @Rock: The corporations certainly are winning now, and have been for a long time. I wonder if/when that pendulum will swing back at some point though?

    I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the U.S. stands ready to bail out Europe's elites too. After all, it's a borderless financial war with the global elites vs. everyone else. They cannot allow each other to lose. This has been the goal of so called "global free trade" after all. The elites vs. the peasants. They got the cash and military, but we have the numbers. Who wins in the end?

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  41. Goodness what a day :-(

    I see the stock market was up 300 points today. I take it that means everything's all better?

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  42. @Mannwich

    Re: your 7:37

    I wish I had some answers. I don't.

    All I can do is try to figure out how to protect my kids and hopefully lend any knowledge or expertise I might have to this community.

    So, all I can say, is, let's go get their money.

    It makes me very sad to say that.

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  43. @Rock: I hear you. The next 10-20 years could be a long, bumpy ride on many levels. Buckle up.

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  44. Imagine what we'll look like as a country at the end of it.

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  45. Not sure I want to imagine that, Thor. What a train wreck.

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  46. I think it'll make us better for having gone through it. I think that people will get sick of hating each other and come together. We're not going to have much choice, corporations and government aren't going to be doing anything for us for at least a decade.

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  47. @Thor and Mannwich:
    We don't need to make me sadder. There are lots of blogs I don't visit for that reason.

    From DJ newswire:
    "Cyber Monday Online Spending Increases By 33% Over 2010, Reports IBM"

    Let's take one step at a time, OK?

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  48. ANR, American Airline's parent, files for bankruptcy. Good thing I got back, for sure. American to cut costs, do layoffs, and cut less-than-full flights.

    I flew first class (used some miles to upgrade) so I don't know if my flights were full or not. I glanced at the flight to Chicago in the main cabin, and saw lots and lots of faces, and in the first 15 rows or so didn't notice any open seats.

    Could be that AA did the Southwest bet on fuel prices and lost their shirts too.

    Bottom line: be careful with your bets.

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  49. The last QE, autos and retail apparel rose the most. Not to say that history repeats, but could be. So if we (openly) start to loan to Europe, we might closely look at TM, F, GM. They've all had pullbacks so we might look for an entry point.

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  50. More bad news: Corning says worldwide capacity to be reduced by 25% by 4Q End.

    As we know, Corning makes Gorilla glass, which is used in flat panel manufacturing: Notebooks, iPhones, large-screen plasma and LCD TVs. Of course, they make other glass and ceramic stuff, and I don't know their breakdown in markets, but this isn't all good.

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  51. Corning Inc: Oct US Retail Sales Of LCD TV Rose 4% so the decline is probably not that. I believe worldwide TV consumption tracks the US pretty closely.

    But by itself, that's great news. Sony reported losses, but their TVs are the upscale prices, and as we all know, we're shopping for bargains.

    By the way, TIF blew the doors off their numbers. And it's not even Christmas shopping time yet.

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  52. So my oldest boy is currently in the Navy in FL a couple three weeks ago he tells me he is going to have leave from xx to xx and can I "Help" him with a ticket

    Well for any of you who have had the pleasure of having kids you know what "Help" actually means = Buy me a ticket and it better be a first class ticket and it better be leaving at the right time too.

    So being the loving father I am I got to Orbitz and look for the cheapest coach seating I can find - OUCH almost $700 BEFORE taxes and F'ing Fees and this was well over two months before his leave time.

    Well I can not book the flight until I know he can get to and from the base on time, so I call him and ask, does this xx time and this xx time work for you, he says well no not really because I wanted to go to Seattle instead of Portland and I was hoping you could get me a ticket into the town where my old friends are from and I say....Ummmm no.

    Well his leave time is 3 weeks away, the air line tickets are increasing in price and he has yet to tell me if the flight times work for him or not so I have yet to book his flight.

    And now we have AMR filing for bankruptcy, I wonder it that is going to make the price other airlines charge go up.

    Kids you got to love them, no really you have to cuz if you don't no one else will....

    Mangy Mutt

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  53. @Mannwich:

    Might be time to look at DIG again. I like the looks of the 60 minute chart.

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  54. @Mutt:

    Luckily for me, most of my miles are on United. I only have around 220K left on AMR. That's only about 4 tickets. Maybe I should go visit my daughter in New York soon.

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  55. Rock - This son who is in FL wanted to learn to fly a plane (He was 15 at the time), so I found a flight instructor and a civil aviation club for him to join, but I could not let him go up in a plane without letting his mother know (His mother and I never married and have different views on child raising)

    To make a longish story short, she ended up bringing close to 10 people to his first flight and took pictures and went on and on and on and..... Like Charles Linburg just showed up, the flight instructor was embarrassed, I was embarrassed and most importantly my son was WAY embarrassed.

    So I put it back on my son and said, Whenever you are ready to take flight lessons again, let me know.....Well of course he has yet to let me know.

    Anyway all this is to say, I have never been on a commercial airliner, I was hoping my first flight would be with my son as a pilot.

    Oh well, maybe one of these days but as of yet I have zero miles.

    Mutt

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  56. @Rock(9:23)

    Add Mcd to the watch list.

    ICan

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  57. @Mutt(10:42)

    That would've been a great career choice!

    So much demand in Ems and very good pay. Plus, you get to see the world for free and live in first-class hotels!


    ICan

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  58. Canada says no to Kyoto.

    Corporate Europe prepares for the worst. Plan B

    www.financialpost.com

    Kyoto was sure to fail. BRICS aren't living up to their side of the bargain.

    ICan

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  59. @ICan
    I like MCD 60 minute chart right now. Nibbling a little.

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  60. Paulson tipped off hedge funds in '08. Somehow this is all legal though. For them anyway? Banana Republic in full throttle.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-29/how-henry-paulson-gave-hedge-funds-advance-word-of-2008-fannie-mae-rescue.html

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  61. Friday morning we get employment numbers.

    I think the employment numbers will be up fairly substantially. Over the weekend, I went to several stores, and spoke to several retail employees. They told me, every single one, was just recently hired to cover the increase in customers. Stores were: harbor freight, Macy's, Nordstroms, William Sonoma, Cost + World mart.

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  62. Agree, Rock. DIG looking ripe.

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  63. Grease got their 8B Euros. 6B from member countries, and 2B from the IMF.

    This means they have to sell bonds to supply the money? Can't just print it like we can. So who buys the bonds? The Fed? The Eurozone banks?

    I saw a Bloomberg talking head say that the Eurozone banks are selling worldwide assets to repatriate money to their contries of incorporation. It may be that the banks will be financing the 6B themselves.

    In the US, incest is pretty much illegal.

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  64. Probably the Fed, Rock. And We the Global Sheeple will incur the losses via imposed austerity, you know, for the "common good".

    The Fed is THE dumping ground to hide toxic crap that We the Global Sheeple will take on in some form or another, while elites get richer and sacrifice nothing.

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  65. The TRIN slope since around 12:24 has been negative. This is bullish. However, the SPY is falling (bearish).

    This is a pretty big divergence. I haven't seen this happen before, since I've been watching the TRIN.

    I wonder what this means. It is very odd, though.

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  66. Rock - My understanding of TRIN is still very limited, but it will be interesting to watch the divergence.

    I guess when you say "I wonder what this means. It is very odd, though"

    It means "Will See"

    Mutt

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  67. Manny(1:47)


    Saw that story at several places.

    Front running and coruuption in the U.S.? Surprised, surprise.

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  68. S&P hit resistence and back. 50dma -1205.

    What will make it go through?

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  69. Trader Mark:

    Yellen testing waters for QE3?

    Post on TIF also.

    ICan

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  70. @Rock,

    Re Grease and 8B Euros and NBG shares price yesterday. I wonder if someone had inside info?

    ICan

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  71. @ICan:

    Naaaaah....who would think such a thing?

    Anyway they have to do this till Merkle's gone next year.

    And thanks to you and Mutt for making me smile.

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  72. I was excused from jury duty today. "I wonder if someone had inside info?"

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  73. Man - BR's site has really dried up lately. Wonder what that's about. Economics fatigue?

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  74. @Thor:

    He's been on Bloomberg several times lately. Maybe he's going after Cramer's job? I don't know exactly what you think of him, but I think that would be a step up for CNN.

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  75. Coincidence? Seems VERY fishy to me.

    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/11/woman-facing-sentencing-for-foreclosure-fraud-admitted-to-preparing-tens-of-thousands-of-fraudulent-documents-for-lps-found-dead.html

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  76. Rock - I like BR actually. I don't know what kind of a trader he is, but his investment business seems to be doing pretty good. He seems to be less focused on the blog and more on everything else lately, can't blame him. The blog just gave him access to all the people with money, now that he has access, I can imagine the blog will fall mostly to the wayside.

    Manny, I read that! She'd already testified though hadn't she? She was just about to go to jail.

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  77. @MAnnwich

    Seems that if you do the right thing, you have to face the consequences.

    Those who do the wrong thing have only to face the authorties who usually play by the rules.

    Those who do the right thing have to face those who do the wrong thing as well as the authorities. Only one of those groups usually plays by the rules.

    I'm sorry to say that over the last 15 years of my career, I have seen too many who do the right thing without adequate protection from the authorities.

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  78. Rock - I don't doubt that. I don't know what's happened to the workplace over the last decade or so, but I don't remember being surrounded by so much mediocrity. Where have all the competent people gone?

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  79. I couldn't agree more, Rock. Sadly. Sigh.

    The good news is that there's a growing population of REALLY pissed off people who've been doing mostly the "right" things and feel like chumps for doing so. One day a real backlash will likely occur.

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  80. Big defensive move by the central banks. They're saying we're all in deeper trouble than we let on.

    Well, we knew that.

    This move doesn't line up with the "improving economy", that is, job numbers are up a little, and GDP was lowered only a little.

    Now, it's cheaper for European banks to borrow through their central banks from the Fed than it is for US banks to borrow through the Fed.

    I wonder how many in the US would have voted in favor of that move.

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  81. So, MCD's up $1.50. good for you Rock.


    ICan

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  82. Printing is the only option left!

    Whatelse is there to do for CBs! Overpaid morons.

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  83. Dont Forget Speculation & LeverageNovember 30, 2011 at 10:19 AM

    ICan - Although I whole hearted believe you are correct, these same idiots who are printing are also taking the free money they have stolen and using it to do the only thing they know how - Speculate and to do that they need to leverage themselves even more.

    This of course will help push the cost of the things we need up, which will slow down our consumption on the things we don't need, which in turn will cause a weaker economy.

    The more they leverage the bigger their debt burden becomes, which forces them to feel the need to print even more money.

    Savers be Damned, prudent people be Damned, common folks who have played by the rules, Yea Damn you too.

    I truly am amazed at how long these games can go on and of course the market is up almost 400 points on this news and we all know a stong stock market = a stong economy.

    Economy be damned.

    Mangy Mutt

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