AAPL is suffering under the same malaise as HP and Dell. Notebook sales are down, and repairs are up. A lot. People are fixing rather than discarding and buying new. AAPL’s problem is the use of Gorilla glass and the requirement for a special clean room to do the repairs, so only their manufacturer can do it. If they qualify other sources, you’ll see the repair time go down dramatically and yet even more reduction in NB sales.
AAPL needs to find more revenues with good margins this quarter. Even the forecast for phones won't keep their revenues and margins growing, they need margins from Notebooks or other revenue sources.
A multi-billion dollar organization that has a hands-on design and marketing capability and forced focus from the CEO is extremely unusual. This fundamental is probably the main reason for AAPL’s success, and I’m thinking that the consensus approach between marketing, sales, design, product and project management will cause the demise of this success. Steve Jobs, being the tyrant, where it was his way or the highway, kept focus and complete faithfulness of his subordinates. This is AAPLs success. Now the question is posed: how far out of the grave can Steve Jobs’ single-mindedness and control reach?
Could Steve forsee the market trend changes? I don’t think so, because AAPL missed earnings estimates (even though the earnings were stellar), and this miss happened too soon after Steve’s death for any changes to be brought about by his successor(s). I’m thinking Steve did not have a plan to overcome shrinking notebook sales.
So what’s next for AAPL?
Maybe we could use the comments section for ideas, and perhaps if one is good, somebody could forward it to them.
Here’s my $.02.
I used to tell my management that if we wanted to show growth, all we had to do is take a tiny piece of the big guy’s market through either targeted design or marketing initiatives. Even though AAPL’s visibility is high, they really have a very small piece of the smartphone market, which is owned by RIMM and various Android providers. Can they kill RIMM by providing multiple database connectivity and encrypted email (a targeted design)? And perhaps other RIMM features, to replace them in the market.
You know the old saying, “Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down”..
Perhaps the Sprint penetration is the first of several targeted marketing initiatives to come to capitalize in this area.
I forgot to mention that when Mercedes was in trouble, they designed a model specifically targetd for the cab industry, and marketing offered it only to huge cab OEMs. That ate into the competition.
ReplyDeleteWell we almost made my 1245 upper range target. I guess it's time to go back to 1120.
ReplyDelete@Mannwich: I still think an entry into APPL around 400 will make you money this year.
Harrisburg PA's in receivership.
ReplyDeleteI remember my Jr. year in HS, we took a Social Studies (government) trip to the foundation of our country and Harrisburg was one of the stops. I can't remember why, but I remember Harrisburg was a stunningly beautiful city.
@Rock: I hope you're right but looking mighty weak now.
ReplyDeleteFWIW - Mine and my wife's iPhones are nearly two years old but neither of us plans to buy a new one any time soon as long as these are working just fine. Perhaps that's also happening, as you mentioned, where people are just hanging with "older" products instead of upgrading?
ReplyDeleteRock, your seriously comparing Apple to HP and Dell?
ReplyDeleteI believe Steve's answer to notebooks was the ipad. Notebooks have never been a serious source of revenue for Apple.
Their small piece of the smartphone market still gives them the majority of profit in this same market.
The analysts targets were way off this quarter, as they usually are, but it just happened they were off to the high side, instead of the low side this time.
I would think it's Rimm you should be worried about, not Apple.
This was a miss, that wasn't a miss.
Remember the Matrix.....there is no spoon.
@Greg
ReplyDeleteI doubt sincerely Steve's answer to notebooks was the ipad.
Notebooks have keyboards, many can talk to real video systems, and allow development enviornments to be installed. And play back MPEG and DVDs. Additionally, their pricepoints (at least Apples) and profits are far beyond the iPad.
If Steve's answer to notebooks was to replace his %3000+ unit whose profit is >1500 with a $700 unit, whose profit is <400, he's following the PC price/profit downward spiral. A disaster--I was in that one myself.
I think he's smarter than that. I think he's looking at the iPad as a new computer serving a new market segment, and people have tried to drag the iPad into the general purpose notebook environment.
The iPad should serve a vertical market. Portable menus. Record keeping. Inventory. Realtor guided tours. Not a "this device does it all" kind of market.
Um, that was $3000+ , not %3000. My touch typing is getting worse, as my motor control deteriorates.
ReplyDelete@greg
ReplyDelete2008 data:
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2008/10/13/what-the-macbook-means-to-apple/
Looks pretty significant to me.
I don't have 2011 data at hand.
@Greg
ReplyDelete2011 data. Apple notebooks are no. 1 in market share, topping Acer.
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Acer-loses-its-Q1-2011-market-share-position-to-Apple-in-the-U-S.51580.0.html
And, BTW, the notebooks have significantly higher margins than desktops. And they use razorblades. (batteries).
@Rock
ReplyDeleteThe 2008 data I think is no longer valid, due to iphone and ipad revenue.
The 2011 data in your article states 1.3 million sales at let's say an average price of $2000 ( I think your price of $3,000 is too high) would be less than 3 billion in revenue out of a just reported 28 billion. iphone sales of 17 million accounts for 11 billion in revenue, and ipad sales of 11 million, accounts for almost 7 billion in revenue.
This seems similar to the argument people had when the ipod sales started to decline.
@Greg:
ReplyDeleteThat article is US dat only. No Asian or European sales.
It's significant revenue. And it's down. Not just AAPL, but Lenovo, Acer as well. From
http://seekingalpha.com/article/257235-apple-still-holding-its-ground-in-notebooks-despite-tablet-popularity#footnote_2_43192
"One report revised 2011 PC growth rate expectations from 15.9% to 10.5% for 2011, as the iPad and other tablets continue to cannibalize PC sales."
The point is PC and notebook growth is down, and low margin devices now available are eating higher margin devices' penetration.
Not a picture of health for profit growth. Been there. Done that.
Got any ideas to overcome that? What would *you* do?
@greg: I can't see the iPad ever replacing notebooks entirely. Far too different in many respects.
ReplyDeleteNot that I am all that familiar with the iPad, but from the little I do know it comes down to the old Apple Vs. PC
ReplyDeleteAnd although Apple has a good product with a die hard group of supporters, we live in a PC world.
Ohh well I am just happy we have some level of compition out there in respect to what we can do our computing
Mangy Mutt
@Mutt:
ReplyDeleteI think the question is (for us AAPL owners) how can be bring stock price from 395.04 back up to 420++?
HP wants out of the PC business. Their profit has dropped to negative in that market area. IBM already got out, years ago. You could say they saw the writing on the wall. Dell is hanging on by a shoestring. Soon, your "competition" will be Korean or Chinese designed and manufactured.
Lenovo is already establishing a direct marketing and sales organization. That's what AAPL has, so Lenovo is attacking their competition at the heart.
I don't see AAPL doing that, that is, attacking the competition. They have historically relied on better product_better idea_better sex. They haven't gone for the jugular of HP or Dell, and haven't stopped the inroads of Lenovo.
What can they do? I want my ex-mother-in-law's stock to go up another 10%!
Some amazing photos of the ongoing Greece riots. No mention of it from what I can see on the MSM, at least on the interwebs, anyway.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.zerohedge.com/news/greek-parliamentary-garage-fire-and-other-dramatic-footage-todays-athens-riots
@Rock, the seeking alpha article you referenced seems to infer that Apple notebook sales are fine and in fact growing, if I read it correctly. iMac sales are also increasing according to Apple and independent reports, so it would seem to me that if the ipad is cannibalizing anything it's PC's and other notebooks.
ReplyDeleteI don't know how you can say that low margin items are replacing high margin items when it comes to Apple. They have the highest margins in the industry, and it doesn't appear to be changing, so what would I do? Exactly what they are doing, right now.
HP has been in trouble for some time. When you have a severely non functioning board of directors, and your main business has become hiring temp CEO's, you've pretty much put yourself out of the game. Dell hasn't been competition for some time. They are a one trick pony.
You say Apple hasn't gone for the jugular of HP or Dell. I would say that's exactly what they did, and appear to be succeeding. I would also say they went after Rimm's jugular as well, and I think you would agree Rimm has been severely gutted over the past year. It remains to be seen of course if they recover from their wounds. I think you might put too much stock in the notion that to best your competition, you must go head to head ie. to compete or destroy Dell Apple would have to produce cheaper computers and direct market them. That's not going to happen.
It seems to me you don't believe Apple' guidance for next quarter, or that this quarter freaked you out a little more than it should have. Put aside the analysts expectations for this last quarter and just look at the results. It was their second best quarter ever, and had the iphone 4s came out a month earlier it would have been their best quarter ever. This information was telegraphed by Tim Cook during the iphone release by the way, and everyone chose to ignore it.
Your ex-mother-in-law's stock will be just fine, and it will be up much more than 10%. That's only $40 from here. We could see that by December.
@Manny...I didn't mean to imply that ipads were going to take over the notebook market, but rather that they are certainly going to impact sales in that area, and again I feel it will impact others more than it will impact Apple's own notebook sales.
Does this make you think of any company in particular?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.marco.org/2011/10/20/how-to-bring-good-design-to-a-platform
stocks I'm watching this AM with strength:
ReplyDeleteONXX
FCX
AGCO
TKR
UPL
TCK
All the rest on my watch list are below and most are significantly below market performance.
Shows you I really don't know anything, doesn't it?
@Greg:
ReplyDeleteHow NOT should read "skip steps 1-4". I think it's a misprint.
I just noticed something.
ReplyDeleteIf you wish to follow a 5 period relative strength indicator, and don't have the capability with your charting program, it seems that MACD(Close,3,10,1) (which BTW is the MACD that Afraid to Trade uses often) is a first-order approximation. The slopes are similar, but it seems that the relative strength preceeds the MACD by about 3 periods.
The 20 period relative strength indicator is completely different.
Don't confuse Rock's relative strength indicator to the one available with charting programs. Rock's is a cumulative % difference between the SPX and the stock. Rock's relative strength takes the delta between the stock and the SPX for the last 5 periods (or 20 periods) and sums them.
The RSI provided by TDAmeritrade on my chart is completely different.
Just FYI.
@Greg:
ReplyDeleteI used to work in the PC industry. I still know a few players there, and from my perspective talking to them and listening to the media, I don't see AAPL taking on the Windows PC market penetration. For example, AAPL has a synchronization capability between devices, but I haven't heard this synchronization includes SAP, ORCL databases, or the ability to sync with proprietary databases, a feature required by many big corporations including insurance companies (at my age, I've talked and met with a lot of insurance agents and none had AAPLs).
Rather, there was a quote on Bloomberg that Steve said "I'm going to wage thermonuclear war on Androids--that's a stolen product" or something close to that. He hasn't been reported to say anything similar about Lenovo notebooks or PCs, AFAIK.
The players I talk to have indicated to me that AAPL is focused on solving their specific problems (which is important, but probably won't gather increases in market share).
Rock - For the past week or so you have been saying you see the market pushing higher, it took awhile but it looks like you were correct on that call.
ReplyDeleteMost of the patterns that I have been watching are no longer acting in a way that I feel comfortable with, so it is time to start changing stratagies.
It took awhile to confirm your assesment and it is difficult to say (As I believe ultimately we will move lower) if or how long things keep moving up, but that was a good call.
Mangy Mutt
@Rock
ReplyDeleteI don't think Apple's focused on market share in the PC industry. That wars's long over. Market share of Macs has continued to climb slowly over the past few years and I suspect will continue to do so.
Apple has clearly moved on.
I still don't get this whole market share argument that everyone comes up with all the time, and probably never will. There's just way to many examples of companies that had market share, with no correlation to profit share. Maybe I'm missing something.
Rock (9:48)- The questions I have is now that Steve is no longer and can no longer have a direct influence on APPL how long will those in corporate power adhere to his stratagies.
ReplyDeleteIf APPL stock sees a significant decline in the next year or two, will the APPL Powers That Be hold the course or will the start feeling like they HAVE to do something.
Also (And I believe it is highly unlikely) what if a new product or service comes out that puts APPL way behind the 8ball? How will they react?
Not arguing with your above assesment as I think Steve was happy sitting in the niche he was in, but it does not mean outside or inside forces can force a change.
Mutt
@Mutt:
ReplyDeleteOur trading range peak is 1235 on 8/31. We hit that today. Haven't closed above it, though.
I don't like the action either, I think headline-trading sucks. But that's what we got.
Now we are in earnings season, and I said if we see weak earnings, we'd push lower. Earnings are beating expectations (mostly except for a few), so now there's a fight between earnings and headlines.
I think the market will continue upward, getting us out of the trading range. When that happens, you're going to see the mother of all short-covering rallys.
What can push us up there? really good manufacturing earnings next week, or a good headline out of europe. I don't anticipate a good headline yet, but I'm thinking earnings will be OK to good next week.
Dollar's been pushed down again, another pressure up for the market. If they decide to save greece, you'll see the dollar drop again, starting that mother short-covering rally.
I think the risk-to-reward is good for a risk-on trade. I've been stopped out since about 7:30 (10:30 NYSE time) but I'm going long again over the weekend, after we see our pullback this afternoon.
@Greg:
ReplyDeleteIf your company's profits are good, and you can capture market share keeping those same profit levels, additional market share will help your bottom line.
However, the companies I've worked for with MBAs running them, argue that if they drop prices (lowering margins) they will pick up market share, lowering Cost of Goods (bigger volumes mean lower prices of materials), and then make additional profits.
Typical MBA school thought. I haven't seen it happen that way in the real world. Some unanticipated factor screws up the math.
So AAPLs goal should be to keep their prices and margins constant, and capture market share from competitors. They've tried suing Samsung and other Android manufacturers, but that won't work. I have a really good story why not, but basically if you lose those lawsuits, you can still easily pay the penalties and continue on business as usual.
I hope your 440 price comes in. Kind of. If it does, my ex-mother in law will probably visit over Christmas. So maybe I should hope for a 410.......
@Mutt:
ReplyDeleteChanging CEOs is big companies has no immediate effect. It takes *at least* 6 months, and I have seen (like in HP, for example) the policies and changes implemented by one CEO (Carly) can't be changed for years.
So Steve's reach will be from "beyond the grave". I hope it's for years, like Carly's, because I want to see AAPL's success continue.
From my earlier post, only ONXX is holding well. Two others I follow are doing well, but didn't make the first cut. They are HAR and CE.
ReplyDeleteI like the fundamentals of CE. Not that that means anything.
@Rock
ReplyDeleteMBA thinking of making it up on volume always fails. It becomes way too much work.
Will FUD lead us into the weekend? Or will it be hope?
ReplyDeleteThis Pollyanna is long, and full of hope for our future. Obama says the guys will be home for Christmas.
I'll see if I can't hire one for my driver. I kind of need one now.
Hello all. Thought it may be interesting to mention that BR has turned bullish:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/10/tactical-shift-in-portfolios-reducing-cash/
I for one think these are hard volatile times. I see a resistance around 1239, then off to 1260. I'm waiting for a reversal at one of these 2 pivots.
I went to the local (hillsdale) mall yesterday night. Macy's is having a 1 day sale, and I had some credit. Anyway, it was like the economy never crashed. Hard to find a parking space except on the top floor of the lot which was maybe 1/2 full.
ReplyDeleteI guess the have's are spending. And the have-nots aren't.
Sheesh - finally caught up at work and at home from vacation, longest recovery ever :-(
ReplyDeleteRock - have to agree with Greg here, Apple has never been concerned with market share on workstations, nor should they.
Also, laptop sales are down for Apple for the same reason they're down for everyone else, mostly because people are moving to iPads. We've already moved a good number of our senior people off the higher end laptops and onto MB Air's.
I will say this though, where Apple could stumble is their non-existent business sales support. I don't know who our Apple sales rep is, even though we're probably spending upwards of a quarter of a million a year on Apple products now. Contrast that with Dell, who we hear from constantly. Apple, I think because they have never really had a large share of the business market, do not have a clue as to how to support that line of their business.
I've also seen, over the last couple of years, a drop in the quality of some of the software and hardware upgrades that have been coming out. Not sure what that's about, but would imagine it has something to do with their massive increase in size because of the iPhone and iPad. . .
The iPhone 4s . . . man, I wasn't too excited about that, and we only had three executives who wanted it when it was released, now that people have seen Siri in action, every single one of our senior execs want it. Like with the iPhone and the iPad, I'll put a hundred bucks on this being yet another game changer. Yes, Google has something similar, but you have to memorize the voice commands to make that function on an Android work, you can speak to your iPhone 4s the way you would anyone and it'll figure out what it is you need. More importantly, it learns! It's smart enough to learn the way a user speaks, and how they ask for things, so if there are issues in the beginning when you are introducing yourself to it, it will quickly figure out what it is you are asking for.
I was cheering for Arab Spring, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya...until I saw those Gaddafi lynching videos...justice?
ReplyDeleteTerek Fatah, Founder, Muslim Canadian Congress writes an article in Huffingtonpost.ca
"Gaddafi's mob murder, Arab winter, not spring!"
He hoped,"the rule of law, the essence of contemporary civilization, has arrived for the Arabds to savor.....".
Alas, I have to wait.
And who killed Gaddafi? I'd say Nato. I thought Nato's mandate was to protect civilians and what kind of threat was Gaddafi's convoy posing to civilians while fleaing Sirt? He was running for his life?
ICan
Good Article -
ReplyDeleteWhy China Copies, instead of innovates
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/7621faf6-fad5-11e0-8fe7-00144feab49a.html#axzz1bZpOt9De
@Thor:
ReplyDeleteTake a look at the monthly FXI.
That's not exactly the chart I would invest in.
Rock - I think it should be clear to most people after all of these years that I don't invest my money based on a chart. . . ;-) If I remember correctly it was Karen who "BWA HA HA'd" someone two years ago when they argued with her ridiculous "Apple will never go above $200 again" based on one of her charts. We all know how that turned out.
ReplyDeleteIn any case, we can re-address this issue a year from now and see who was right. Right?
@Thor:
ReplyDeleteYou have to remember a year from now. Rock's memory won't work that way, I'm afraid. Not anymore.
I see the middle-class bubble in China growing. We talked about that a year ago or so, as I was looking for property in China. I think. Not sure.
Anyway, the middle class are facing danger there, because although property values are remaining constant, the trade's off. No buyers, because the buyers are risk off right now. That means the values will fall. The government will be there to shore up the values somehow, and the banks will be allowed to take the bad loans off the books. But there's trouble a'brewin.
And the FXI is reflecting that, and may be leading, because the numbers don't show that kind of value fall yet.
This is more than a chart.
Rock - we too went to the mall this weekend, but it was more about wasting time then shopping.
ReplyDeleteThe mall is adding a movie theater and is also going through some fairly major upgrades.
Even though there are several enterances to gain access to the mall we have "our" enterance that takes us to the center of the mall where they have escalader to the second floor, well because of the on going construction they have taken out the elevators and put up a barricade.
My wife and I make comment on this and proceed to the elevader, mind you we never take the escalder if there are stair we can take instead and we never take the elivader if there is an escalder....stairs.
So we get to the elivader and I push the "up" button and my wife turn to me and says "Why are we takng the elivader?" I turned and pointed to the barricaded area that they had taken the escalders out of.
And she is not even Blonde.
Mangy Mutt
:-) I can't hide the fact that I'm an Apple fan boy. . . plus I've worked closely with their products for 16 years now and buy a lot of their products. . . . you might say I have a professional bias.
ReplyDeleteWhat are you two doing up so early? I've decided to try to stay on East Coast time. Strange driving in to work in the dark, I saw a Coyote running across Sunset Blvd this morning on my way in!
My 2 cents: shorting when/if SP500 reaches 1260 is a high probability trade. Stop loss could be placed around the next resistance @ 1280 or the more significant one @ 1294.
ReplyDeleteWolfie - hey buddy! How's France these days? ;-)
ReplyDeleteI can't be the only one slightly confused at this recent rally. What on Earth does the market have to rally about?
@Thor:
ReplyDeleteMan alive, up at five
@Thor:
ReplyDeleteThere's a pretty good post over at the fly's blog
http://ibankcoin.com/flyblog/
about what may happen if all the hope that's pushing the market up gets dashed.
I know for sure I'm out tomorrow(Tuesday) because I'm not convinced that Fly's not right, and I am not taking any chances. I'll live to fight another day.
I am of the opinion that nobody knows how good the CDS insurance really is. So it's easy for me to remove myself from the ring and let the big boys duke it out.
@Thor: Hey friend. Things still going just fine here. No austerization yet and business seems as usual.
ReplyDeleteBut economists are pointing to fears of a new recession:
"The euro-zone's private sector contracted at a faster pace in October, highlighting a growing risk that the region could slip back into recession, Markit's preliminary October purchasing managers index showed on Monday."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204644504576650410991502504.html
@Mannwich:
ReplyDeleteWe at the top yet?
By Ian Thomson
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
"Wall Street's consensus Standard & Poor's 500 earnings outlook for 2012 has fallen more than 4% from its summer peak and is now back to January levels, as the third-quarter reporting season brings some tepid corporate guidance.
"The current consensus estimates are for earnings-per-share of $109.14 next year, down 4.3% from its $114 high Aug. 3, according to an Oct. 23 report by Morgan Stanley (MS) analysts led by chief U.S. equity strategist Adam Parker. That represents 12% growth from the $97.64 forecast for 2011.
"The decline comes after a number of companies issued sluggish guidance in recent weeks, including Carnival Corp. (CCL), Ingersoll-Rand PLC (IR) and J.C. Penney Co. (JCP), and suggesting to Parker that consensus expectations will continue to fall"
@Rock: Apparently not, judging by market action.
ReplyDeleteMoney fleeing Europe and going into U.S. stocks, perhaps? For the time being anyway.
Manny & Rock . . . ah, I didn't think about that! So people are moving money out of the fryer and into the frying pan, got it.
ReplyDeleteWhat a mess :-/
@Thor: That's my theory, although I have nothing to back it up. Money moving out of Europe and into U.S. stocks, but probably in a brief layover, as they probably don't want to be in Treasurys at this level? Eventually much of that money will flow back into T's though, I think. Again, just a theory. Have at it.
ReplyDelete@Mannwich
ReplyDeleteGood theory.
Italian bonds yields rising, rising.... 6%....going once going twice, wait do I hear 6.2%?!!???!!!
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GBTPGR10:IND
As usual, ZH is pone to hyper hyperbole, but Netflix looking a bit gruesome these days....
ReplyDeletehttp://www.zerohedge.com/news/oops-netflix-sees-revenue-profits-4q-lower-expected
Manny - I was reading about that on my way home from work tonight. I canceled my NF subscription. So many other ways to get movies now.
ReplyDelete@Thor:
ReplyDeleteIf not NFLX, what is there? BitTorrent? eDonkey?
Seriously, while I was in Singapore, I tried everything to get pro and college football games.
ReplyDeleteIt was impossible.
So if one of those companies wants to succeed, they should figure out how to give subscribers what they want, when they want it.
One of the talking heads on Bloomberg said that Steve Jobs changed the way we watch television, the way we make phone calls, and the way we listen to music.
ReplyDeleteI think she's ignorant. I watch television exactly the same way way I watched television in 1963. It's just now they're bigger and I have to move my head side-to-side to see the action.
I talk on the phone, point to point, exactly the same way I did in 1956. I dial a little differently, but i still reach the individual at the other side exactly the same as 1956. (but my phone doesn't have a dry cell anymore).
And, I listen to music exactly the same way as I did in 1970. My 8-track looks a little different and is smaller now, but I have to get out of my car and open the trunk to change the tape, instead of leaning over the passenger's knees to change it. The speakers are distributed in the car, and the songs are still the same: Beatles, Byrds, Steppenwolf, Beach Boys, Chantals, Stones, Jimi, Floyd.
Steve Jobs simply gave us a sexier screwdriver and made us believe we needed it. And that's the key to success. To make the customer believe they need that product to do the same things you did before.
I had an emergency call to go to work this afternoon. Go figure, I'm retired.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I left with no stops and holding 2 positions short. I hope it doesn't hurt too much in the morning.
She said.
@Thor:
ReplyDeleteAnother up pressure: rumors of QE3. In the short term, my overnight short position turned out OK because of the housing numbers. But members of the Fed are saying publicly that perhaps the Fed should buy more MBS's.
Hmmmm..... Granted this is Tuesday, and I expect some downward pressure, and for sure I will be out tonight because of the meeting in Europe, but I'm thinking there's still more to move up.
Bloomberg did an analysis, and it looks like about 90 of 120 reporting companies have beaten expectations (why didn't AAPL!!??!!??). Now, it may be that expectations have been lowered Q on Q or Y on Y, and so reports look positive. I'm going to see if I can find somebody who's done that analysis, I don't have time.
@Rock: The pundits way overstate Jobs' influence on the way we live. I would surmise that nothing truly innovative has been invented since the personal computer, which spawned the internet and then everything else after that, but nothing truly groundbreaking has been invented in over 40 years, IMO. The bar has been set way too low for people on that front now so they way overstate things.
ReplyDelete@Mannwich
ReplyDeleteWe need the next personal computer.
My son has an iPod. He showed me his dry cell. He has an adaptor which has a battery. This adaptor plugs in the wall or a car cigarette lighter to charge it's battery. It can recharge the iPod like 5 times. A rechargable dry cell.
Agreed Rock. That's been my premise too. Without the next real big groundbreaking invention, there's really nothing to pull us out of this economic malaise. Could be a long, ugly, bumpy ride.
ReplyDeleteGLD, on the daily, has formed a nice W with the right side higher. A breakout of the 163 resistance could lead an upward swing back to 180.
ReplyDeleteThe euro is likely to be devalued with the impending bailout. 1 T has to come from somewhere, and it's likely the printing press could be turned on (the alternative is to sell more debt, not a likely outcome IMHO). Fundies say this should make gold more valuable.
I hope somebody else got into CE at 40 with me.
ReplyDeleteI still like CE to go higher, regardless of MMM's comments.
Morning guys!
ReplyDeleteRock - Ah yes, but many people do much of the activities differently than you are doing them now. For instance, I do the vast majority of communication via text and chat. For instance, I'm just as close to the friends up there in SF that I grew up with, as I was 7 years ago before I moved to LA because I talk to them all day online just like I did when I was up there. I rarely use the phone anymore - possibly 5 minutes a day tops, and on weekends, not at all.
ReplyDeleteI'm very close to giving up paid TV and switching to Hulu or some other online service. More often than not, I watch Boardwalk Empire on my iPad via HBO GO - I watched the entire first season driving around the middle of Maine.
We never once got lost on that trip, and trust me, we literally went out into the middle of nowhere, down roads that were not paved, never with a Map, and always knowing where we were going. We made hotel reservations at the flick of a hand by just opening up the Map on the iPhone or iPad and typing in "hotel".
I fill all of my prescriptions now by simply taking my prescription bottle and scanning the bar code on the side of the bottle.
Can't remember the last time I looked up a phone number on my computer, nevermind a phone book. Same for movies, I use the Apps on my iPhone for that, which will also tell me the closest theater playing my movie.
I could go on and on and on but I think you get my point. Smart phones have changed the world, you may not be one of the people who have seen that kind of change, but trust me, it's a game changer.
Manny - the game changers are coming - they will be on these mobile devices - have you seen the 3-D cameras some of the Androids have? Pretty f***ing sweet, and this is just the beginning of the software. Siri, I also think is going to change the world, not her specifically, but these kinds of simple AI's (yes, I know this isn't anywhere close to a true AI in the literal sense).
ReplyDeleteMostly though, the massive changes to society are coming from biotech - we really and truly are getting closer and closer to turning cancer into something like diabetes, and close to a point where we are going to be able to cure things like diabetes and AIDS. The things being discovered about diet, and exercise, and how to lengthen the life, not just in terms of overall age, but health itself.
I don't think the big things that are coming are going to be physically large, like computers, or television, or the automobile and radio, but I strongly believe that they will have an even greater affect on the way in which the average person lives their lives as any of those earlier technologies.
People like you and I for instance, will very likely live will into our 90's and beyond but remain healthy and extremely active, imagine what that's going to do to society. We're just on the cusp of some of these changes. :-)
oooooh, and also, one of the most exciting things I've been reading about in biotech, you know they can make things like bladders, noses, and ears, in the lab now, grown from your own tissue. They're are within a decade of being able to grow (or print!) things like livers, kidneys, hearts. Imagine what it might be like 30 years from now if your heart starts to go, and you can simply have a new one grown for you, this isn't science fiction, these are things they're working on now, and getting fairly close to success with.
ReplyDeleteBeen spending a lot of time on sites like this lately.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.newscientist.com/
Rock - Good call yesterday about today being downward.
ReplyDeleteThe stockes that I had seen patterns develope in started to loose those pattens last week and I figured either you were right (Which you were) and that we break upward or we would break downward.
But what I did not understand was last weeks move is what Denise use to talk about - Consolidation - and if memory serves correctly she said that is normally an up side move.
I am glad you were able to see that and I hope you made money with it I am also glad you got out yesterday...Smart Move
Mutt
@Thor: But are those really BIG picture game-changers though? I think not. A BIG picture game-changer changes much more than you say and creates a whole new paradigm and jobs to go with it. I'd say a true groundbreaking invention related to energy would be in that realm, but not what you're talking about. That's just more fun, "cool" gadgets built on top of the invention of the personal computer and internet. Sorry.
ReplyDeleteThor (11:24)- Cool so in a few years I can just order me up a new liver - I will drink to that.... I just hope this one will hold out until then :p
ReplyDeleteMutt
Manny - I'd argue that having basically a super computer in your pocket is far more of a game changer than you're might be giving it credit for. Having instant access to any and all information is the largest societal change we've seen in human history since the invention of the printing press, and that's not just me saying that, most of the social scientists studying these things would agree with this. . .
ReplyDeleteWe'll have to agree to disagree. I'm setting the bar higher for what a real game-changer is. For example, phones were one. The auto was another. So was the TV, computer, and then Internet. All of the items you describe aren't creating their own paradigm but merely building off of the inventions of the computer and internet. I'm not saying these aren't noteworthy inventions, but they aren't changing the whole game in terms of the global economy and jobs situation, which is what's needed right now.
ReplyDeleteIn that sense, we haven't had a real game-changer in 40 years. I'm sticking to that thought.
ReplyDeleteand a perfect example that I think you're ignorning about "game changer" are the revolutions in the middle east - how did that happen? Technology, in your pocket . . . ;-)
ReplyDeleteAnd the items you describe may actually be making people and work less relevant, so it could actually worsen the global economic situation, as fewer people are required to do meaningful, good paying jobs.
ReplyDeleteA real game-changer in my view is one that creates millions of new jobs, not destroys them.
@Thor: As a techie, I think you overplay the real role of tech in these revolutions, which would have likely eventually happened anyway. Did tech maybe speed them up? Yes, but revolutions have happened throughout history without the tech gadgets that we have now, so how do you explain that?
ReplyDeleteMannwich - I have much agreement with you the fact we are in a technilogical slow down and that "that nothing truly innovative has been invented since the personal compute"
ReplyDeleteAfter Al Gore invented the internet, purt near everything else has been a block built on top of that.
My wife and I just recently got into a discussion about this and I likened the internet to the rail roads of the 1800's
Information or products that use to weeks to travel across the U.S. now took days to weeks, this helped develope towns and industries (Many of which are no longer with us) and it helped inovate new products and services (Many of those are no longer with us)
But it was not until the personal computer COUPLED WITH the internet came along that pushed the next big technolgical revolution.
But when all is said and done many of the products we can not live without today, will no longer be with us.
Mangy Mutt
Now if all this tech leads us to a point where we can all work less but reap a bigger share of that entire pie that's created, THEN I may agree that these are true game-changers in a positive sense. Until then, I just don't see it.
ReplyDeleteRight now, tech is destroying good jobs at a rapid clip, rendering too many people without enough meaningful things to do in their communities. If tech decreases the work week, while allowing more people to work, but where we all work less (and enjoy more quality time with our loved ones), then maybe I can see them as true paradigm shifters, but that hasn't happened yet.
Great example, Mutt. The railroad is a perfect example of a real game changer. So many things were built off of that in the subsequent decades. Same thing with the auto.
ReplyDeleteAs for jobs - we'd have enough jobs here if we'd just quit making it attractive for companies like Apple and GE to ship all our manufacturing jobs overseas. We used to have a vibrant steel industry in this country but rather than figure out a cleaner way to produce it, we decided it would be better to let the Japanese, and then the Chinese, muck up their environments. . . .
ReplyDelete@Mannwich:
ReplyDeleteThor may be right about the biotech as being the next game changer. Is there an ETF for the biotech anybody can recommend? I don't want individual names because of the insider trading, the regulation exposure, and the inherent volatility.
Regarding a new liver, well, as I remember, when I was 30-40, I had a different view of life than when I'm 60-80. Steve Jobs may have got it right when he said something like "death is the facility to make room for the next people who want to change the world".
Yeah, I know, he was still capable of changing the world and his death came too early. But I'm not so sure about my ability to change the world. Anymore.
Manny - I would strongly disagree that technology wasn't directly responsible for those revolutions, they weren't called the Twitter Revolutions for nothing, both Twitter and Facebook were used extensively to start, to grow, and then to continue the revolutions. Up until technology brought us information in our pockets ALL information was controlled by the autocrats in the middle east. That technology was used to stay away from crack downs, to propose new meeting places, to communicate with other revolutionaries.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I think that my employment in the technology industry makes me better able to see the changes that are taking place and what the new technology is doing to our society. There already ARE hundreds of thousands of new jobs being created because of the smart phones. GO online and look for a job as a J2E developer or an App Designer and tell me how many openings you find, and then tell me how much those jobs are being posted at. We cannot hire app developers here fast enough and the one's that we do hire are making upwards of 150K, there is THAT much of a demand for this kind of work right now.
I've said this before, I think that we are at the dawn of a new age for mankind. Ask anyone under 30 today and they'll give you an ear-full ;-)
ReplyDeleteGREAT debate btw!!!!! :-)
ReplyDeleteThor - If I understand Mannwich's arguement correctly - That yes there have been a lot of great products made in the last 30+ years, but none of them except the personal computer and the internet (Thank you Al Gore) are truely advances in technogy - Then I agree with him.
ReplyDeleteBesides a personal computer and access to the internet, name 1 other thing (Or derivative of)you did not or could not have 30+ years ago.
Music? Camera? Phone? Maps? Books? Information? Banking? Travel? Resources? Type writer? Calculator?
The personal computer and the internet made it possible for us to access these thing easier and pass communitcate more efficiently, but it is hard to say any of them by themselves are game changes.
Mutt
I agree that biotech could be the next real game-changer. As for tech gadgets really being game changers, I'm still not sold on that idea. I think they've changed some things, for sure, but not sure all are for the better or are real paradigm-shifters. I'm also still skeptical about some aspects of social media, namely its long term staying power and real influence on things. It makes communication faster and maybe more efficient but does it really make it better? I'm also of the mindset that revolutions happen because enough people are ready to demand real change and put themselves on the line for it. Technology may facilitate that dynamic but it does not cause it.
ReplyDeleteThat's exactly what I'm saying, Mutt. Not dismissing any of the inventions that Thor speaks of, just saying they're not real "game changers" as I understand that definition. Those only come along once every 30-40 years, it seems. Maybe we're ready and due for one or even a couple?
ReplyDelete@Thor: As a semi-retired recruiter (I'll still fill certain jobs for certain clients), I can tell you that actual job postings aren't truly indicative of the "real" jobs that are out there. Many of these are what we in the recruiting industry call "fake" jobs, meaning they're basically unfillable and that companies are often just fishing with these postings.
ReplyDelete@Thor:
ReplyDeleteI think you got it wrong.
My friend and ex-partner has a business in the US. He was asked by a company (really really big one) to expand the business to handle more work from them. He put together a complete plan to expand, went to 5 banks in the US for money to get the stuff necessary and was denied 5 times. He's Korean, a citizen of the US, and flew to Korea and instantly got the money, is putting up a building with 50% more space than he needs in Korea, and the company that started the expansion has asked him to take more work on as soon as the new facility is built and operational.
No, it's our government that sends the jobs overseas. Craig Barrett was right, although I'll never forgive him for not fighting the good fight to keep jobs in the US.
Small businesses that want to expand can't get financing. My friend was given 3 reasons by 5 banks: unknown regulations, too high capital requirements, and guaranteed return from loaning the US government money.
Somebody really powerful needs to fight the good fight. Intel is too weak now. AAPL was strong enough, but Steve sent jobs overseas rather than fighting the good fight to change the US (as opposed to the world).
@Rock: I think it's a shared responsibility of the government and big corps to ensure that our people are taken care of first with good jobs. That's the bottom line. The government can enact smart policies to help ensure that, but then they need to drive a hard bargain with businesses to ensure they don't get played time and time again. Bottom line is neither is looking out for the American worker and their fellow citizen at all. That's at least part of what OWS is all about. We've been sold out by the elites. The battle is basically the global elites against the global non-elites now. It's a borderless battle in that regard.
ReplyDeletePropping up zombie gambling parlors, I mean, "banks", that won't lend to help spur the economy isn't a wise policy either. We're looking more and more like Japan every day in that sense.
ReplyDeleteManny & Mutt - fair enough - but one could have said the same thing about desktops computers just being an offshoot of mainframe computers, it wasn't really until the internet became ubiquitous, that we saw the real affects that personal computer were going to have in our lives. I'm arguing the same for the smart phones, which, I might remind you both, have been around for only three years, yet have become pretty much ubiquitous. Print is going to die very soon, no more magazines, or books in print within 5 years, all of that is going to your pocket. I'm a hard core reader, always have been, and literally have an entire wall in my house that is nothing but books from floor to ceiling, yet even I have given up any kind of paper. I read National Geographic on my iPad because it's a far better experience than reading it on paper, the writers of those stories can do SO much more now than they could in the print magazines, the stories can be longer, have links all throughout them to other articles of interest.
ReplyDeleteReading books alone, my god, I'll never go back to a print book again. I can browse twice as many books that I could walking through a book store. Things like words you don't know the definition to, just point on that word in the book and the definition of it pops up. No more dictionaries.
Yes, many of these things are gadgets, but most of them are extremely useful time saving gadgets, and most importantly, like the invention of the printing press, it takes information out of the hands of the people who control it, and put it in your hands.
How quickly now, when crazy people like Bachman say something, are we able to almost instantly know that it is untrue?
As for social media, never going away, that might be harder to see in our 40's, but again, ask anyone under 30 if they think that they could live without FB or Twitter and you'll have your answer. Hell, I put my entire vacation on FB in real time and my friends and family loved it, it allowed them to follow along, and to be a part of my trip, in a way that was so much richer than the usual emails I used to send out. The number of distant friends and family I am able to keep in touch with on FB is staggering. I know it's not for everyone, but for those of us who use it heavily, it's indispensable. How many FB users around the world are there now? 500 million? That's a significant percentage of the worlds population, take into account the average age of the users and you get an even larger portion of the worlds youth population.
I work with folks who have immigrated here from all over the world and I can't imagine any of these people suddenly deciding that the way in which they keep in touch with friends and family back home is going to somehow be a fad. . .
You'll see, trust me, eventually you'll see ;-)
Rock - Fair enough, it's not the companies fault that the government has identified moving workers offshore, it is, however, their fault for demanding it in the first place don't you think?
ReplyDeleteManny - agree with your Japan comment. So sad, I'm am slightly encouraged by OWS though. Whether it has any real staying power is another story, I hope they can at least keep it up through the next election, we need to have SOME sort of counter to the idiots in the Tea Party or they'll just keep dragging us farther and farther to the right down paths we've already gone down and failed on several times before. They're ALREADY trying to get the do nothing financial regulations we just passed removed!
ReplyDelete@Thor:
ReplyDeleteYour 12:43
Does "their" refer to government or companies?
Sorry, my english just isn't what it used to be.
RE: your comment on texting your friends: Yep, that's why AT&T cxharges .20 per (average) 20 word text message, and .10 per minute (500 words) of voice communications.
The benefits of leaving voice messages are not just cost; it's really hard to get inflection in a text message, and you lose the personal touch, the personal attention and intense emotion that only your voice can convey. I would argue that texting your friends has made you less social than calling them. And, with your iPad, I doubt you would type as long a text message as this, or while you're driving in your car, I doubt you'd be alive long enough to finish a text of this length.
Rock - Hah, good points! I did feel a little technology overwhelmed on this trip. It was primarily a road trip, and at one point while we were hanging out in a hotel one night, I realized that we had two iPhones, two iPads, and two laptops with us. Agree that I would never have typed out any of this on an iPad or iPhone . . . .as of a week ago. I'd be more than comfortable just talking all of this to Siri and having her type it up for me today. . . . No longer any need to type anything at all on either an iPad or an iPhone now, you just speak it.
ReplyDeleteAlso, you no longer pay for texts on AT&T, iOS5 uses it's own internal messaging system that does not count toward your texting allowance.
Gotta keep up with these changes, they're coming faster and faster ;-)
@Thor:
ReplyDeleteHow do you get cell service without paying AT&T (or Verizon, or Sprint, or other service provider)?
I need that technology. I would love to get and send short texts without that service charge.
And yes, speech to text and voice navigation is a great feature, when it works well for you. I gave my dad a PC with ConversA (yes, long long ago in a galaxy far far away) and even though it was spotty at best, he thought he'd died and gone to heaven, because his hands wouldn't hold still long enough to click a mouse.
Not to change the subject, but from Geithner re Eurozone: "A deal will be reached" "it's important they deliver on the commitment they made".
ReplyDeleteA deal is not a solution. A "solution" is defined as a plan which the talking heads think will fix the eurozone financial problems.
So we have these possibilities (if you're staying in overnight)
1. A deal that is a solution: Market up a lot.
2. a deal that is a partial solution: Market down
3. A deal that is a non-solution: Market down a lot
4. No deal: market down a lot
I don't see much upside. I think I'll try a long on SKF tonite and see what happens. Risk to reward looks pretty good.
In some ways, I think all this technology is making our lives worse and even more impersonal. Personally, I see a backlash to it coming, even amongst the younger generation. I've talked to quite a few who don't use any of the social media platforms at all and are fine with it. So much of this social media stuff is very superficial. Nobody can really have 1,000+ friends or career networks. Not possible. The real ones are the ones that you nuture with actual personal communications, whether that's via phone, in person or both (and I don't even like the phone, prefer in person).
ReplyDelete@Mannwich:
ReplyDeleteI agree. With the technology, it takes sooo much longer to find solutions.
The other day, I was looking for a video splitter. I looked on-line for several hours, and finally called Radio Shack. They said they didn't have a video splitter, but they did have an A/V distribution amplifier, which would meet my requirements.
When I searched for A/V Distribution Amplifiers, I immediately found a cost-effective solution.
Same thing happened when I searched Panasonic site for information regarding TV power supply 110/220 volt autoswitch capability. An hour of searching found nothing. A customer service internet email question received no response. A phone call got me an answer in 5 minutes.
Manny check it out!
ReplyDeletehttp://spaceweather.com/aurora/gallery_01oct11.htm?PHPSESSID=o7i2f3vlsffpf8g2vdsqobr6e2
They're seeing Aurora all the way down to ARKANSAS!
Rock - At this point, I am taking my lessons about market consoludation and how money is moved to cover losses (Europe) into places (U.S.) that can show profits and continuing to sit out.
ReplyDeleteNo matter what kind of "solution" they come up with it will not fix the core of the Europian problem.
We also had a big down day, but S&P barely broke 1230, TPTB want us to believe a strong market = a stronge economy and with the potential of tons of money flowing out of Europe tomorrow could well be an up day.
At the same time because we had a big down day, consumers are begining to realize the market and the economy are not the same thing and people may figure out there is nothing that can be done to save Greece or Europe for that matter, we may loose another 2% tomorrow.
So I choose to sit back, watch and hopefully learn a thing or two.
Mutt
Beautitful Thor! Unfortunately cloudy here today and a bit chilly, after what's been an amazing October here overall. Best one I've seen since moving here in '05.
ReplyDeleteAMZN just missed rather badly.
ReplyDelete@Mutt:
ReplyDeleteYep. That money flow is a good lesson.
People used to talk about sector rotation, and when most of the money being rotated was inside the US, it was effective. Now, sector rotation has taken on new meaning: FXI, EEM, EWZ, SPY.
I still see some "sector rotation" inside the Nasdaq/NYSE, but because the money is really internationalized, it is much harder to see. When I look at relative strength in the sectors, I see 1-3% differences over 20 trading days. However, if I move my charts back 10 years, I see 5-7% rotations (but I have to build my own ETFs because the sector ETFs pretty much didn't exist then, so it's not exactly apples-apples). I notice a significant difference over the years.
The market beta now seems to be the driving factor. That may have to do with the computerized trading: if the market goes up 1%, then my computers may buy 1% more of each of my holdings in my portfolio. And I may not even see the trade.
@MAnnwich
ReplyDeleteNot my fault! I bought all my 110V kitchen appliances and video adapters and other stuff through AMZN!!!
Well, this is certainly depressing:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.marketwatch.com/Story/story/print?guid=ED19C19A-FE6B-11E0-96DF-002128040CF6
I wonder if they've been losing business to tablet computers. . .
ReplyDeleteI'm going to throw up an open Thread for tomorrow - Obviously, feel free to post over it with content at any time :-)
ReplyDeleteMy post, my post!!
ReplyDeleteThe Plin, the plin
(rest your soul, Herve)
You're gonna steal my day?
@Thor
ReplyDeleteBTW, did you know you're a stock?
Rock - Thor is a lot of cool things, so it is not surprising to find out he is a stock too.
ReplyDeleteMutt